Online Debate Tips

But I do disagree with one point you wrote. You don't think others can ever change their minds. I do think it's possible, but it seems rare, unfortunately.

NO YOU! You're wrong *fingers in ears* lalalalala.

I kid.

I agree that, now and then, it does occur. I don't, however, think that's really the point of the debate. I think that the debates are more effective for the people reading a thread about an interesting story, who pick up and read a debate, then pick a side, and start weighing in.

You might not be able to change minds, very often, but I do think that well-crafted debate helps people make up their minds in the first place. I, myself, do that all the time when I open a story, and don't know how I feel about it. I doubt I'm unique in that regard.

So, perhaps, I was a little too harsh, yesterday, when I claimed that you can't change minds.

6. When engaging in debate online, keep a fresh glass of scotch nearby.

Excellent suggestion!

Zom Zom wrote:

Which brings us to one other I'd like to add:

6. When engaging in debate online, keep a fresh glass of scotch nearby.

Oh my, no.

I get into the most trouble when I TUI. :)

Or a fresh bowl of skunk weed!

S. Cat,

Oh my god, if I smoked pot I'd probaly never get up from the computer.

Friend request sent.

I've actually seen people change their minds here on the 'vine. It happens. I even had one person e-mail me, compliment me on presenting my view, and state that I'd changed his mind. That e-mail keeps me coming back to the 'vine when people are going out of the ways to be nasty.

Aine,

I've also added you to my watch list. This article has some great points about how to debate, and some excellent advice for everyone. Thanks so much for putting this up.

I think point 4 is the best point, and it's something that I will admit I sometimes have trouble remembering. It is especially difficult to "remember to have fun" when you are debating a topic you are overly passionate about. But if you let some of the things on here be taken too seriously, it can really drag you down.

Sarcasm is a huge problem. Unless you are familiar with someone's postings, you may not catch it when they are not being serious. That's the problem with short bits of text like we find on here.

...so, you've been "busy"!

High five babe!

aine

A cat? ;^)

*waves back to her beloved, Aine* Meowwwwwwwwwwwwww! :) Great thread, Baby!

*smooch*

Smooch again...just smoochin...lol

Alright you two, get a room! (sarcasm)

Woo hoo!

Can I watch?

[pout]

Dennis,

Would you have said that to a heterosexual (since society demands labels) couple, even in jest? Just curious. :)

Probably not. :)

But, then again, I've always been, um, shall we say, visually oriented.

I would have said that. As a matter of fact, I have a business proposition and a free web cam camera for any couples (or more) out there.

Hell, I'll take singles...

Dennis in #4.13 and Spooky #4.14

I get that :). I also understand that your comment (Dennis) was innocent. Unfortunately, the innocence of a comment like that does not negate the fact that it is sexist and heterosexist, even though you probably did not think of it as so. The subtleties of the things we say hold immense power and perpetuate problems in social constructions designed to oppress and marginalize women, homosexuals, racial minorities etc.

Any group that deviates from what society has been brain washed into believing is the "norm" is subjected to ridiculous assumptions and intense scrutiny.

Some of the stigmas, that women and even more specifically gay women have to tried (and continue to try) to overcome, are that we are sexual whores, perverted and kinky as well as sex obsessed. Typically, men find it difficult to accept the fact that some women might not see them as the ultimate source of sexual satisfaction. It threatens hegemonic masculinity.

The realities of such assumptions are far from representing the truth. We struggle to be taken seriously as educators, professionals, mothers, students, journalists etc. Many of us "pass" as straight and choose to live our lives hiding our true identities, because it is easier than to give up heterosexual privileges that come with "fitting in" to the box society has pre-constructed for us. A person's sexuality is private. A man giving an affectionate cyber kiss to his wife would not (or nearly as often) stimulate a sexually suggestive response from an observer that implies perversion. Personally, I feel that Aine and I deserve the same respect. :)

The medical and scientific communities have a long history of (and continue to) creating and recreating lists of identifiers that describe what normal is supposed to look like. They abuse their power and act as authorities (mostly right-winged, radical Christian, white supremist male dominated or supported) over where people belong on the social hierarchy and who does and who does not deserve special privileges. None of the identifiers on these lists have anything to do with a person's character, intelligence, personality, abilities, or potential, nor are they realistic or accurate. I am not even speaking as to whether or not a right-winged, Christian, white male is good or bad, I am suggesting that society is obsessed with the differences between men and women, straights and gays, blacks and whites rather than admitting and acknowledging that there are more similarities than differences and neither is truly better than the other. Society is conditioned to believe otherwise. These hierarchies are only in place to secure, maintain and capitalize on power over others. Whenever these norms are challenged, fear sets in and many people who conform to these norms feel threatened that their special privileges will be revoked and/or defensive as if they are being accused and made to feel guilty for being born male, straight and white. Some activist groups do blame people who conform to the status quo. This is a whole other topic and I will refrain from diversion, today as I have said quite a lot already!;)

Now, having aired my thoughts, I will say that it is not YOUR fault that this is the way society is designed. It isn't your fault that these problems exist; however, I could not let it slide. Your comment(s) provides an excellent example of how we as a society continue to blindly support some of the very things we are against, largely due to a lack of information and understanding.

Dueling Dualisms, Anne Fausto-Sterling

Mapping Embodied Deviance, Jacqueline Urla & Jennifer Terry

Scientific Racism and the Invention of the Homosexual Body, Siobhan Sommerville

Intersex Narratives: Gender, Medicine, and Identity, Sharon Preves

Goodbye to the Sex-Gender Distinction, Hello to Embodied Gender, James W. Messerschmidt

Prisons of Our Bodies, Closets of Our Minds, Patricia Collins

Gender Shock, Phyllis Burke

Sorry if my comment offended you, Phobe.

I was attempting to be humorous, but, having recently completed a transfer-level sociology course in race & ethnicity inequality, I should have realized my comment could have been taken that way.

BTW, I happen to be married to a man.

Some of the stigmas, that women and even more specifically gay women have to tried (and continue to try) to overcome, are that we are sexual whores, perverted and kinky as well as sex obsessed.

So, is that the part that you're claiming that Dennis' comment is therefore offensive because of?

Just wanna be clear.

#4.17 Zom, My entire response speaks to my opinions with regard to "the subtleties of the things we say that hold immense power and perpetuate problems in social constructions designed to oppress and marginalize women, homosexuals, racial minorities etc." Dennis didn't offend me directly or personally, I think I mentioned why I chose to say anything about it.

#4.16 Dennis, that is fantastic! How long have you been married? I wasn't really offended because I do understand how seemingly harmless little comments might be. And, I am by no means Miss Polly Perfect PC...I only try to be aware...and like I said before, your comment caught my eye as an opportunity to speak and provide a little food for thought on a subject I care deeply about! Thanks for being my example :D

And thank you for not taking it too personally! I really am talking about the problem not the individual!

Dennis didn't offend me directly or personally, I think I mentioned why I chose to say anything about it.

I was asking because I wanted to know if that was the specific stereotype that you were claiming that Dennis' comment perpetuated. Because, if so, here's my problem with your argument:

Your original statement, however innocently intended, was " *waves back to her beloved, Aine* Meowwwwwwwwwwwwww! :) Great thread, Baby! *smooch*" Within that comment, you've referred to yourself as a cat (a common euphemism for female sexuality), used a "pet name" (baby), and made a comment that is intended to be received as a virtual, sexualized act. And you've done so on a public forum, where anyone following the thread is likely to read it.

Now, there's nothing wrong with that, in my opinion. It's perfectly acceptable, playful behavior, on the internet. Dennis, in kind, responded with his own playful behavior, for which you criticized him, on the basis that he was perpetuating a negative stereotype. However, it was your perpetuation of that stereotype that had incited his comment to begin with. So, while I think it's perfectly acceptable for you to criticize Dennis' comments on the grounds that you did, you might rethink your own, as well.

I'm not defending his comment, by the way, and your criticism is spot-on.

It does not justify the stereotype, at all, that persons who are stereotyped as acting in a certain manner sometimes act in that manner (just because some black people might be lazy sometimes does not, for instance, justify a stereotype that "black people are lazy"). But you lose the moral high-ground if you criticize someone for believing it while partaking the very action that they're stereotyping you for.

It doesn't negate your criticism, and I'm not trying to tear it down.

I'm simply pointing out that, if you criticize others for forgetting that "the subtleties of the things we say that hold immense power and perpetuate problems in social constructions designed to oppress and marginalize women, homosexuals..." you might want to remember it yourself, as well.

If I said that "why do all black people smoke pot," I would, in fact, be making a racist comment. Dave Chapel, however, wouldn't have the moral authority on which to criticize me for it, if I was asking him, backstage, after his stand-up routine about black people all being stoners.

I'm also aware that there's no way I get away with making this comment without being lambasted. Eh. It's probably worth it.

On the contrary, I have no intention of lambasting you as I recognize the effort you make in attempting to point out a potential problem with my argument losing credibility because of comments I made to Aine. :)

It is a fine line indeed, but maybe you are not aware that there was any line at all. This does need to be rectified. Aine is my wife. A viner asked her how she was doing and she made a very loving reply about how she found someone that loves her and things are looking up...another person...jested it was a cat...I merely decided to reveal that I am the one she was referring to...Aine didn't mention my name because she wasn't sure I wanted to OUT myself on Newsvine.

So, here is how I feel about my statements to my wife: it is between Aine and myself how we choose to refer to each other. Aine is the ONLY one that can call me "petnames" and I think if you asked her, she would prefer people other than myself, NOT to call her petnames that suggest familiarity where none exists. While true, I chose to show affection in a public forum, I had not anticipated a reaction from other people indicating that they feel entitled to make my public display of affection to my wife and open game of online sexual fun.

I would agree more with your point if I had been being sexual playful to anyone other than someone with whom I share an intimate, monogamous, loving and committed relationship with.

That is why I asked Dennis if he would have said that to a straight couple. He indicated that probably, he would not have...why?

So I am sorry if you feel that I have lost "high moral" ground or that I should practice what I preach. I do recall also stating that I am not perfect, I never claimed to be. I brought the topic up to discuss in order to generate conversation about things that are often overlooked.

As an aside, I recently read many of your comments on another thread, where someone was trying to compare polyamorous with homosexuality. I found your arguments to be solid, exacting and profound. I voted them up and I appreciate people that take a stand against mainstream ignorance. That being said, I am puzzled as to why you take such a strong issue with me here in this case.

I just want to throw in my two cents. I've been following your sociological discussion and I have to tell you this is the first time I've ever encountered any couple in a thread talking to each other. I thought it was kind of sweet.

Thank you KGMO, I appreciate your comment and I assure you that it will not become a habit. :) lol

This was just supposed to be a casual way for us to "come out" here at Newsvine as a couple...I guess it didn't go all that smoothly and admittedly, that sort of stings.

...wow, y'all all are certainly yet oddly sensitive enough to be strutting around the interwebs as you do.

I agree with you.

I'm sorry if it didn't go as you had hoped. But I hope we can be friends. (request sent) btw we are going to the beach in Charleston this year, if we can find a nice hotel that isn't too expensive. Thanks for your advice!

KGMO-

You are most welcome, I am not privvy on hotels as I haven't lived there in 8 years and of course when I visit, I stay with family and friends. Have you checked out beach rentals?

I hope you have the best possible experiences there! Now, if you need food/restaurant suggestions, I have loads. Generally speaking, most everywhere you eat in Charleston will be delicious, it is a strongly competitive fine quisine market. :)

Friend request accepted.

Spooky: see #4.28

We're going to have to go for a weekend instead of a longer trip, I'm changing jobs and won't have any time off until the fall. We don't need a house or condo for a short stay, and we've already found some good hotel deals, but it's hard to know with hotels what your getting until you get there.

We'll be bringing the kids, 7 & 9, so we'll probably be looking for a crab shack with burgers or something like that. If you can make any recommendations for casual dining that would be great.

Super. I would recommend Gilligan's, Cappy's, Hyman's Seafood Co., Sticky Fingers.

I also like T-Bonz for casual burgers, and steak. T-Bonz also connects to Kaminski's (best desserts and coffee ever). All of these are kid friendly/family oriented, and all are downtown Charleston except for Gilligan's and Cappy's. Oh and menu prices are moderate.

My parents are friends with the owners of Hyman's and they are really good people~On Thanksgiving, they close their restaurant to the public and open it to the homeless shelters and anyone else who can't afford a decent holiday meal. We used to volunteer there every holiday as waitstaff. What better way to spend a holiday about gratitude? :D

If you really want a taste of southern quisine try some Gumbo, shrimp and grits and of course fried green "tuh-may-tuhs"...heehee...yum!

I have to say that I'm pleased to see others' sensitivity to stereotypes.

We often say things innocently, and, if not challenged, we don't understand how offensive our comments can be.

I have to say that it is nice when someone actually listens, and considers for a moment a different point of view from their own, whether they agree or disagree. I don't normally come off so strongly on a subject, but this one has come up more than once as of late, and was currently on my mind anyway~I am sorry I used you as a target to launch my opinions on the matter without at least contacting you privately first to give you a chance to respond outside of a public arena.

I am relatively new to newsvine, and yeah, immersed in academia, so I could stand to lighten up a bit. I still feel strongly about this subject, in general and I am glad I am not the only one that "gets it".

Other things that are really nice and very rare are apologies. I appreciate your apology and consideration, it speaks volumes to me of your character, (not that you need my opinion, but there it is , anyway). :)

Thank you, Dennis.

Oh, believe me, I know how remarks, no matter how innocent, can be perceived as bigoted or prejudicial and provoke a reaction, even if they were meant in jest.

Let me give you an example.

I think that I'm one of the most non-prejudicial, "colorblind" people on earth, and I'll listen to anyone's point of view and, if they can back it up, I'll consider it valid. (OTOH, I have zero tolerance for willful ignorance.)

I was participating in a small study group for a math exam a while back. I make a joking comment that I would likely get a good grade on the exam because the group consisted of a lot of Asians.

After the study session, one of the students, an Asian woman, calmly mentioned to me that the remark was offensive and explained to me why. I actually never realized that I was being offensive.

I've since stopped making that joke.

P.S. Who moderates the MSNBC seeds?

jandersen,

I had thought I'd read that no one actually moderates the MSNBC seeds. There have been some that have gotten so bad that I e-mail newsvine directly, begging for them to do something. By the time it gets to that point, I have usually lost any desire to return to the seed, and I never see if they actually do anything about what's going on.

P.S. Who moderates the MSNBC seeds?

I don't think anyone does. (And that's a big problem.)

Thanks just and kate-

I think they need a named moderator. Having gotten myself into this, I left a comment on page 5 of the seed:

FYI-

"At Newsvine, you must comply with the Code of Honor and the Newsvine User Agreement, because you agreed to do so when registering for your account."

Here's an Online Debate seed you might find helpful.

the reply to which was "WTF???" But, at least I'll think I have done something about it before I abandon the page.

The biggest problem with having a moderator on a discussion board is the moderator let's their personal feeling dictate what is or isn't fair discussion..

Well, the moderator is the writer/seeder. My curiosity arises when he/she writes/seeds a very controversial issue and later on Delete the comments; why to provoke ire among the posters is the question that keeps rolling my eyes.

Greg,

The moderator's job is to be impartial. If you notice that that isn't happening, report it to Newsvine.

IMHO, Tyler does a fine job but he's just one man and this site now has many, many users and threads. If people moderated their own columns better and tried to remember the CoH his job would be much, much easier.

I can't keep up with my own threads. There's no way Tyler can look at even 1% of the stuff posted here.

Is Tyler newsvines only moderator? That's just crazy! You're telling me they can't find volunteers for the job? Heck, I'd do it. I had always imagined that there were a group of them, and when a comment or board got flagged, it sent them an alert to go look. It wouldn't be that hard to set up a system like that, would it?

There are only about three people I'd trust on Newsvine to moderate threads other than their own. And, hint, one's in the top five on this week's leaderboard and two aren't.

cartooncat is a pretty good moderator.

I'm sure he/she is. ;>)

sch,

It is not rocket science that some writers/seeders/posters use the ! or protest in e-mails to call the attention about the comments.

Wow, I don't understand #5 at all??

Aine, very nice article here.

Shoot! I should have been clearer: I was talking about Leaderboard #5, not comment #5. Sorry, janderson!!

Most of what happens in the world never appears in the media.

And most of what appears in the media is repeated on every other media outlet. Traditional media has become a huge echo chamber, with the major difference being the direction of bias.

I have written so many times...and I have learned that it is a site where you can not be critical of gays....honesty about your own feelings is not acceptable, so we must assume it is a gay driven site with only positive feedback about gays that is acceptable.

Perhaps your opinions are inflammatory and that is why they are not acceptable? It might just be my interpretation but this reads as if you are very hostile.

Perhaps your opinions are inflammatory and that is why they are not acceptable? It might just be my interpretation but this reads as if you are very hostile.

That's one thing I've noticed lately as well. People will often throw out borderline to blatantly offensive comments out into a topic and when those comments are collapsed or deleted, they whine and cry about liberal/conservative censorship (depending on the topic/author).

Aine MacDermot wrote:

My own test is: What would my mother think if she read this? (My mother is deceased, btw.)

I call that the "stand in front of my mother" test, and I've used it for years whenever I've had the urge to, shall we say, stretch the truth.

I use my grandmother, Aine, same idea. If grandma would backhand me for saying what I'm posting, I'll think it over HARD before posting. (Mind, if I think it needs saying, I might post it anyway... but it'd have to be worth both the smack and the disapproval from grandma, so that's very rare.)

Arad wrote:

Certain people (who shall remain nameless) are making a habit of writing articles that quote numbers and statistics, then they flat-out refuse to provide any links or verifiable sources to back up their points. The burden of proof is on the person making the claim, not the people you're shouting at.

Those of us who have been around electronic communications for a long time have been dealing with that on Usenet and other discussion forums for 30 years.

There really are only two effective ways to deal with people who refuse to back up a challenged claim.

You can refute the claim, and, of course, provide substantiation for the refutation.

The other thing you can do is to simply move on. Sometimes that's the only option, especially when it becomes apparent that the person making the original claim is too ill-informed to debate the topic.

Yah, I finally tossed someone on Ignore today for just this. (Not numbers, but a fact he was claiming was "common knowledge.") Make me nuts.

Ah yes, the old "everybody knows . . ." fallacy.

Generally, when I see that, I just bypass the rest of the post.

Hopefully they will decide to open these discussions to the public with no moderation...and you can keep yours for yourselves.

I certainly hope not. Moderation allows us to weed out those who just cuss and call people names. That's what makes this better than other sites. This is open to the public and the rules of participation are posted for all to see.

The first amendment guarantees that the Government cannot infringe upon your right to free speech. You don't have a constitutional right to have your opinion published. That is up to the publisher.

But I don't understand what your complaining about really. You're obviously capable of making a coherent argument without expletives, inflammatory language, or ad hominem attacks.

You have just passed judgement on my post, and shall I take it as inflamitory?

I'm sorry you see it that way; I was stating my opinion. Here it is again:

Perhaps your opinions are inflammatory and that is why they are not acceptable? It might just be my interpretation but this reads as if you are very hostile.

Do you really think that is inflammatory? I suggested a possible (not probable, just possible) explanation for your comments to have been collapsed - I did not accuse you of anything, and then I said that I felt that your comment seemed hostile - very clearly stating that it was solely my interpretation. If that came across to you as inflammatory then I have to suggest that message boards with open exchange of ideas might not be the best environment for you.

Zanyzazu

wrote:

Yes you are correct ..I am angry and resentful of clan behavior on public sites, not because of collapsed posts,but because of judgemental people who decide who can speak and who can not and what they can say.I see very inflamatory remarks and cruel things said about Obama everyday...threats, and vile statements about Bush, name calling, vulgar words, and never collapsed.

As a journalist, you know full well that public figures are subject to a much less strict standard of defamation than private citizens.

Heated exchanges are to be expected and are the intention of the site or there is no point.

Politeness in these situation can not be realistically expected.

On the contrary. I expect a certain level of decorum in any discussion and particularly in a debate format.

With respect to the remainder of you angry diatribe to MSNBC, I rather suspect you'll receive a terse, albeit politely worded response that basically says not to let the door hit you . . .

I have only been here a short time. So far, being polite has been worth the little extra effort to re-edit before I hit "post comment."

Best way to do it, Lakes, welcome! If you're in a jam about something, just ask, there are a lot of us willing to take a few minutes to show somebody the ropes.

Scott recently posted an "introduce yourself" thread, drop by and say hi.

Careful, it's addictive! ;^)

Boy, that's for sure.

My husband just came into my office and asked me when I was going to start dinner.

LOL

(Spits Pepsi all over keybaord) What was that?

What was what?

My husband just came into my office and asked me when I was going to start dinner.

Is that a joke? or did you just come out? It's none of my business, it's just kind of bizarre that you went through that whole thing with Phoebe.

I read that as "I'm a married man". Well I'm feeling a foolish. Sorry Dennis, I hope I didn't offend you. I really do like the way you write. Aine thanks for a very interseting seed.

LOL

Well, I am a married man, and I'm married to a man.

Anyway, after I finally tore myself away from this newsvine addiction, I did finally cook dinner - a nice BBQd salmon fillet with some mixed raisin turmeric rice and grilled sweet peppers and broccoli.

Dammit, where's my dessert.

Sounds delicious. Have a nice evening.

I find myself studying and referencing more.

Absolutely. I'm finding out more about the things that I care about. I think I'm learning how to write better. I re-enforcing my own opinions and in one or two instances I've actually learned something that changed my mind. ;^)

What is it you get, Spooky?

Amen to that brother!

One more that I follow:

Think critically to build a solid argument upon solid evidence.

The only illustration I have at hand is this article of my own, which I wrote shortly after Election Day. I knew this was my A game, but I had no idea how it would appeal to other Viners. Imagine my surprise to find reader after reader weighing in to post a comment and discuss the topic. I'm a conservative, yet several left-wing Viners who I'd gone head to head with elsewhere posted flattering comments. #1.5 from killfile blew me away. To keep readers up to date I added #24 and cautioned about investinging in stocks and municipal bonds.

I blew it using Google as an illustration, as it is an exceptional stock. The market's advance from the lows of 2002 brought back memories of the dot-com era. This is normal market behavior as I've learned. GOOG is likely trading around 420 now because it's a darling of Wall Street. When the next waves of selling hit though, I expect the bears will hammer it hard because it has a long way to fall. In any event, I'm not dabbling on the long side of the market at all because it's way too risky IMO.